1302 or 1303 struts, Which do you think is the better Options

[sinistervw]

What do you guys think is better...THe 1302 3-bolt syle struts or the 1303 style 2-bolt struts? I personaly would think the  1302 style would be better since a 3 pont would be more stable than the 2 point ones. i also like the beefier center mount for the control arms. My fav super is the early-mid 73 supers with the Curved windsheild and cooler dash and the 3 bold struts. this is all IMO!

[NYBugman1972]

Personally, I don't have a preferece, but 1303's do have the advatage of fitting 924/944 brakes.

[vujade]

after speaking with John at Topline, he told me that the 02 suspension is beefier & he prefers it over the 03.

The reason I asked this because I was considering changing my 02 suspension to the later 03 suspension, but he recommended that I stay with it.

[Superdrag73]

The thing I prefer about the 3-bolt style is the ability to lower it more.

[Chris Percival]

2-bolt.  It has better geometry and offers more options for modification.

[Plumbugracer]

Oh Here We Go!!!!  

First it was Flat or Curved - now it's 2 bolt or 3.... :sigh:

I guess that would make me a "3 bolt flattie"?  :p

[Superman]

NEGATIVE ROLL RADIUS

[sinistervw]

Hey Supe...What is negative roll radius? just in a quest for more knowledge!

[Insaino Dwayno ...]

Supe can probably explain it quicker and better than this page, but it's what I found when I looked it up, and it made sense to me. http://www.clubvw.org.au/what_is.htm

[Superman]

The article is right on so I quoted it below (from ClubVW Sydney, webmaster Steve Carter). Basically it's what I call in simple terms a self correcting steering. I posted this pic for reference (and if you're reading this Steve you can use the pic for your club's site article). Notice, it's not a great pic, the line drawn through the center of the tire [tyre] and read below for details. Think of it like this, the 1303 (2 bolt late) has the same suspension design as the Golf GTI and Porsche 944 and the 1302 (3 bolt early) has it's design in common with the 411 Sedan/Wagon.

What Is "Negative Steering Roll Radius"?
You have probably heard this term applied to various newer model cars, as in: "Yeah, well mine's got NSRR." Owners of all water-cooled VWs can boast it, as well as owners of later Superbugs. But what is it?

Negative Steering Roll Radius (I'll call it NSRR from here on to save my typing fingers), is an arrangement of the front suspension components that places each front wheel's pivot point outside the centre of the tyre's axis. Huh?

Consider your front wheels pointing in a straight line (we'll assume no toe-in for simplicity). The central axis of the wheels, the one they revolve around, passes through both wheels and should be exactly 90 degrees to the direction of the car's motion. just as if they were joined by a solid axle all the way across.

Now think about what happens when you turn the steering wheel. Traditionally the wheels pivot around the steering knuckle as they start to point left or right, and of course the steering knuckle is closer to the centre of the vehicle than the centre of the tyre is. The effect is that the tyre will actually follow an arc as it moves from left to right

You can visualise this by thinking of the little circlip on the end of the speedo cable on a link-pin Beetle's left front wheel. As you turn left, the circlip (and the wheel too, of course) will move backwards and in towards the inner mudguard. Centre the steering wheel and turn right, and the circlip comes out and forward, reaches maximum outer position at the straight ahead, then continues forward and in towards the headlight bucket as you turn right. In effect, our circlip is the very outer marker of the arc the wheel is describing.

NSRR is exactly the opposite. The suspension components are arranged in such a way that the circlip now becomes the CENTRE of the wheel's turning arc - is outside the tyre's axis rather than inside at the steering knuckle.

Now imagine turning left This time, the circlip stays where it is and the wheel moves around it the front of the wheel comes out and the back goes in.

What does all this achieve? NSRR helps the driver maintain control when one front tyre has significantly poorer traction than the other. This might occur when braking hard while turning a corner, when one wheel drops off on the road, or when one front tyre blows out

When a conventional car encounters such a situation where one front wheel has much greater traction, that wheel will also have the greater stopping power. If this occurs, the car will tend to pivot around that tyre. NSRR makes the front wheels want to return to centre to oppose the pivoting force helping the driver maintain directional control , even though one wheel has much greater traction than the other. The result is a tendency to stop in a straighter line.

One other clever design trick used on front-drive VWs is a special type of "uniaxle" unidirectional front lower bushing. This gismo is designed to absorb road bumps in the fore and-aft planes, but without permitting changes in wheel angle that would affect steering. Like most good ideas, the bushing is simple: a disc with strategically placed openings that control its motion.

Phil Matthews @ ClubVW Sydney

[Superman]

1302 - stronger & will go lower
1303 - handles better & 944 brakes will adapt

[Superman]

Oh, and lastly...

the suspensions will interchange, so you can have a 1302 with 1303 suspension and vise-versa.

[volks1302]

Is it really just as simple a matter as bolting the newer style stuff on?

[Plumbugracer]

Yup - as long as you do the bottom arms, spindles and struts - it's a bolt on...

[Superman]

...and the sway bar.

[Steve C]

Hi

I have gone too far down the 3 bolt route to go to the later style, but I can see where they would have advantages. If I was starting from scratch, I would go 1303 struts but I would use 1302 strut bearings. When Im looking for something to do next time Im going to get some moly lower control arms made for my 1302. Jame its cool to use the stuff from the club site, Phil is a drinking buddy of mine.

Steve C

[Jeza]

Steve

I thought I once read a post you wrote mentioning that putting the 1303 2 bolt type struts onto a 1302 would increase it's track?  Does anyone know if this is true?

Thanks
Jeremy

[71Super]

Steve
You mentioned getting some Moly lower control arms....
is there anyone that makes control arms for the 1302's? or 13003's for that matter?
mine are fine, but it would be good to know where they can be obtained, just in case...

[Steve C]

Hi

Jeremy, I dont have any figures, i have seen that 1303 front wheels seem to be much closer to the outer lip of the front fenders/wings/mudguards. The 1302 had a front track of 1387 mm with drums and 1391 with discs. Does anyone have this info for the 1303?

71 Super I would have my arms custom made, I dont know of anyone making after market ones.

Steve C

[Scott H]

I've got some questions about this pic and the interchangeability issue.
I see in the other posts where y'all say the 1302 and 1303 suspensions are interchangeable and I have no question about that.
But in the pic, the tops of the struts seem to be at different heights, making it look (to me anyway) like the attachment points on the body are at different heights. I have no experience with a 1303, so forgive my ignorance.
Is the pic scaled correctly? Or does some type of spacer/adapter have to be used?
Also, since the 1302 struts are 3-bolt and the 1303 are 2-bolt, do the existing holes in the strut towers line up with each other?

thanks

[yavuzsev]

I was reading the old topics and I realised that there is something wrong with this one. 1971-72 1302's and 1973 1303's use the same 3-bolt style struts. Only 74 and later supers have 2-bolt style struts.

This post has been edited by yavuzsev: Mar 10 2007, 17:36

[Bugorsh]

Early 73's came with the 3 bolt and later 73's came with the 2 bolt.

[Superman]

Only the very very late, like the last month, of '73 had the two bolt struts.

[Joel]

i swapped my 74 over to 3 bolt
only cos i had a buggered spindle and couldnt find a 2 bolt replacement anywhere but had a heap of 3 bolt supers

after the swap, my tyres were about 15-20mm further in a side
and i was naturally able to go alot lower too
but in terms of strength or handling ive noticed no difference

Joel